Relocate ammo dispenser at the airlock

[Rush]

As suggested by Pyro and revised by Smaug in another thread, it could be beneficial to relocate the ammo dispenser near the airlock on dys_vaccine to the back of the spawn room. Made it into a seperate suggestion so it would not get lost in the more general discussion on the airlock.

In short, moving the ammo dispenser to the back and place it in the corner where the player is exposed (as opposed to behind the props lining the wall closest to the core) would force corp players to move away from the lock. As a result the airlock would suffer less from continous spam. Granted it would still be bad, but atleast it would help a bit.

See image:

[Smaug]

It's not a magic fix, but my god, at least the corps have to focus a little on something else. It's kinda like Det obj2, it forces the LR to come out of his spawn after a while. With obj3 Vac, on defence you literally sit at the spawn and it's all there for you - choke, ammo dispenser, a big wall.

[bauxite]

i think this won't really change much, it takes like 4 seconds to get there and back, each player has pretty much enough ammo for 1 incoming wave of punks or 1 life, whichever is faster, so if you die, you spawn again with more ammo, if you live and all the punks die, its just an annoying stroll to get ammo and come back.

putting 1 ammo dispenser inside teh airlock is probably more balance changing.

or adding two doors to the airlock.

or not changing it at all.

[Pyroguy]

Inside the airlock would not change it much. A proper defense always has some Corps in the airlock.

I guess most of this thread is probably going to be about where. In the other thread I suggested having it up high inside the core room itself, this way both teams have to go the max distance to get to it. Obviously this will let you camp the core room right next to a dispenser, but I don't think permanent camping there will ever be extraordinarily effective at stopping the punks from winning.

[{McMuffin}]

i like pyroguys idea

[Mice!]

Silence my child.

[avv]

If you think about it ammo dispenser being far away doesn't always help at all. In assemble 2nd the corps can tesla spam even though their ammo dispenser is very far away, same with silo 2nd. One place where ammo dispenser positioning is good is fortress last. Corps have to actually travel to potentially hostile grounds to get more nades if they wish to block punks at the data storage entryway.

[Rush]

Makes sense, what about moving the dispenser infront of the airlock, punks side?

[Xaxu]

Makes sense, what about moving the dispenser infront of the airlock, punks side?

Certainly more effective than moving it to the back of the room, but at this point, anything would help.

[UsefulId|ot]

airlock is already balanced. atk and def can both take advantage based off of who the better team is. you kids who just suck at strategy can't just have everything edited to suit yer weak-play-styles.

[Xaxu]

airlock is already balanced. atk and def can both take advantage based off of who the better team is. you kids who just suck at strategy can't just have everything edited to suit yer weak-play-styles.

You. Yes, you. STFU. Now. Nobody likes a troll. I would know.

I doubt this thread is meant for pugs/DGL matches, as it's rather obvious to anyone who's playing in pugs/dgl that it is a death trap and should be approached with care. However, if you've played a pub in the last 2 months (and I know you have), you should know that almost nobody gives a damn about strategy, and those who do are ignored. Most pubs these days have five or six of about 15 decently-experienced players, and the rest are people who either don't know how to play (as they are new), or those play pubs for what I can only assume equates to the reasons the high-school bully beats the crap out of the weak and defenseless. Certainly, it has nothing to do with getting better at the game. There is no team balance, as everyone just wants to stack the teams to up their points or whatever.

Any time there is a major choke point, people are going to get clusterfucked (that IS the point of this thread, to stop clusterfucking in the airlock?). The way to prevent that is to force the defense to get out of the choke points. Attack cannot take advantage of the airlock as it's an issue with proximity to spawn points. The corps can fill up the airlock right off spawn, the punks cannot. Anything deterring the corps from hiding in there will balance it.

Ultimately, the only practical solution would be to move the corp spawn to the other side of the room, so they're by the core rather than the airlock.

[UsefulId|ot]

dude, shush. played with ya today, you never knew where to be to help the team's obj you just aimlessly run around with a totally ego-centric mindset. vaccine is super fine as is, the v2 balance to airlock solved all issues. neither team can super spam ftw anymore. it's a 3 obj map which means a lot of the time attackers will have 5-10 minutes to defeat it by attrition and not actually have to wipe the defenders ... also final objs on EVERY map should slightly favor the defenders.

and xaxu...nobody likes a troll huh? http://www.dystopia-game.com/forum/view ... =9&t=20694

Useful Xaxu

[grievous]

i also like that idea but one thing i have been thinking of is reshaping the airlock in a type of T.

atm i do not have time to go into great detail about how i think the airlock should be shaped but when i get back from texas i will.

[avv]

Makes sense, what about moving the dispenser infront of the airlock, punks side?

In terms of relocating the dispenser, it could be the best solution. But in the end the airlock is what it is.

airlock is already balanced. atk and def can both take advantage based off of who the better team is. you kids who just suck at strategy can't just have everything edited to suit yer weak-play-styles.

What? You can't call it map-related balance when a better team wins. Of course the better team wins.

This isn't even about making life easier, but more enjoyable. Airlock can be very boring for everyone. Spamming and waiting for enemy to arrive isn't very interesting even if you win.

[UsefulId|ot]

This isn't even about making life easier, but more enjoyable. Airlock can be very boring for everyone. Spamming and waiting for enemy to arrive isn't very interesting even if you win.

waiting? uhhhh go back hack then? go camp ramps or go camp spawn door. wow that's three things instead of camping to do. other times you might be on your heels and have to rush to core room to defend. there's a lot to it. it's a 3 obj map, meaning it should be a little tougher because it's 33% of the map instead of the usual 25% or rare 20% and airlock should favor defenders as it's the last stand.

or if you're attacking, either trickle thru to win by attrition or wait for your team and have a real push. it's not rocket launcher science.


you kids are crying to have a map edited on a forum instead of improving yer game in a server, it's that simple.

[Rush]

Dude calm down. We're talking about relocating an ammo dispenser, no major map overhauls. Compare it to those dispensers relocated on dys_detonate in v1.2. Just like there this isn't a game making or breaking change, but a small tweak we think imrpoves the map a tiny bit.

And please, stop playing the l2p card. I hope you know better than to think of us as noobs who just discovered this game (well most of those who posted here anyway ).

[UsefulId|ot]

rush, i type all this with a smile on my face. i marvel at the attitudes of noobs who think if they can't win, the game is obviously broken. i also marvel at ppl taking offense to the l2p card and the use of the word noobs...truth is truth, fella.

hour or so ago played a vaccine attack that had defensively stacked teams
punks: me, stormsurge and eradicator + many noobs
corps: ashley, weirdo, bear glue, The Big , and Prometheus + a couple noobs

nearly full server, capped 3rd obj at 15:38. attackers won vs stacks because vaccine IS BALANCED.

[avv]

rush, i type all this with a smile on my face. i marvel at the attitudes of noobs who think if they can't win, the game is obviously broken. i also marvel at ppl taking offense to the l2p card and the use of the word noobs...truth is truth, fella.

hour or so ago played a vaccine attack that had defensively stacked teams
punks: me, stormsurge and eradicator + many noobs
corps: ashley, weirdo, bear glue, The Big , and Prometheus + a couple noobs

nearly full server, capped 3rd obj at 15:38. attackers won vs stacks because vaccine IS BALANCED.

You can leave your egocentric boasting at the door. Basically nothing you just said didn't bring anything credible towards or against the topic here.

Every map is balanced because both teams get to defend and attack. But every map isn't equally fun because of spam for example. Vaccine airlock has been renowned of its spam forever and the reason why it hasn't been properly fixed has to do with the brush limit.

[UsefulId|ot]

im calmer than you are

[Omnigord]

the reason why it hasn't been properly fixed has to do with the brush limit.

Also, the fact that it has already been fixed and is currently fine.

[bauxite]

the reason why it hasn't been properly fixed has to do with the brush limit.

Also, the fact that it has already been fixed and is currently fine.

a couple of units larger and windows???

best fix i ever saw.

[Omnigord]

the reason why it hasn't been properly fixed has to do with the brush limit.

Also, the fact that it has already been fixed and is currently fine.

a couple of units larger and windows???

best fix i ever saw.

That's all it really needed.

[Xaxu]

Not quite. Even barring DGL and PUGs, as I think it's become clear that no decision could be made based around them, as they are, by their nature, about strategy and (semi-)careful planning, we shouldn't be making decisions to appease even the top 40% of the player base. Decisions need to be made with the good of the majority, not the good of the majority of the dedicated and expectant.

While I commend the idea of rearranging the ammo dispensers into the airlock, I honestly don't believe that it would do much good for the majority of cases. Much of the time, corps crowd into the room like sardines into a tin. Mind you, they're sardines with automatic weapons and high explosives, who are not only very able and willing, but live for the idea of absolutely positively clusterfucking every last mother fucker in the server.

The overarching idea seems to be that there needs to be a way to reduce the clusterfucking. The way you do that is to draw them out, or removing choke points. The latter is rather unwieldy, as it would require removing the airlock entirely (both sets of doors and the whole of the front wall, which, while I support, I admit it would be a bit too extreme for this situation), which leaves the former. While moving the ammo dispensers to the other end of the room would be a start, it's still too close, and there's still line of sight. If I had to pick a location on the corps side of the airlock, I'd put them on the ledges overlooking the doors into the datasphere room. No line of sight, plenty of distance, and it puts the corps in an almost ideal situation for killing the punks as they enter the doors.

[Omnigord]

Not quite. Even barring DGL and PUGs, as I think it's become clear that no decision could be made based around them, as they are, by their nature, about strategy and (semi-)careful planning, we shouldn't be making decisions to appease even the top 50% of the player base. Decisions need to be made with the good of the majority, not the good of the majority of the dedicated and expectant.

I don't think I quite understand you. Here, you are saying that game design decisions should be made to appease 100% of dystopia players, or just the lower 50%? Isn't ~50% a majority? Especially when that 50% is the top 50%. The people who enjoy Dystopia. Who have played Dystopia for years. Who are (usually) good at Dystopia.

Maybe it's just me who thinks this but the airlock is fine. Yes, it is a hard objective to conquer. Yes, it is easier to defend than the rest of the map. Yes, that is a good thing. The final objective, especially on a three objective map, should be hard to capture. The airlock is hard to break through, as it should be. It appears much harder though when the attacking team is employing no strategy at all whatsoever. A team full of idiots blindly rushing forward in to the meatgrinder taking absolutely no notice of their own spawn timer, living teammates, defender's armor, living defenders, or defender's spawn timer will have an extremely hard time pushing past the airlock.

This game is made for (and at it's best in) organised play.

That doesn't mean DGL 5v5 no noobs allowed. 12v12 can be organised. A game full of new players can be organised, even if they don't know what they are doing, they can attempt some sort of strategy if there is team-wide communication.
The airlock can be overcome just as easily as any other difficult objective. (Compare to silo 1, silo 3, fortress 5)

I know this is a really shitty way to end this argument, but seriously; to attack airlock, just get good.

L2P

[Xaxu]

Oops, I should probably check my posts before I post them... I meant to write 40%, and it has been corrected. 40%, the minority. Example: Only in the United States Senate and on online forums can the minority rule because of antiquated principles.

And once again, we run into the age-old argument against all change, "you're doing it wrong." Yes, I know HOW it's supposed to be done, and that dys is MEANT to be played strategically, but there IS no organization in pubs, because those who don't know how to play it are trying to learn, and those who know how simply don't care. There is no simple solution for this, except for people to start giving a damn about playing strategically in pubs, which I don't see happening any time soon.

So please, when someone have a way to solve this that doesn't require getting other players to do something or leaving things as they are, I'd be more than willing to consider it a viable alternative.