dys_dogma [WIP]

[Smaug]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Dogma!

Smaugy's Test Team:

ZLJ: Smaug, metzGRR, Lars, Random, Words, Kaz, Putkonen, Virt, Blinorez, Triggerllulz, Sparky
FePh: YoRu, Chi, Blox and Flagels, Weiss, Bear_Glue, ie, Box, Dex
Special Guests: FISHMAN (<>< Savior), d.ee, WILDMAN

Only these people should have the map. If anyone else is found with the map, there will be consequences :3

Battle Plan:

Phase 1: Initial ZLJ+FePh+fishman testing with map testing every few days
Phase 2: Over the weeks of testing the alpha, bring some more clans in for more balance testing
Phase 3: Enter beta phase with care being given to looks
Phase 4: Enter pubbies with regular pug sessions of 5v5 / 7v7 / 8v8
Phase 5: Hold 5v5 competition with dogma (very much like how broadcast was tested "back in the day")
Phase 6: Release Week

Somewhere in these phases 1.3 will be released. This is a good thing.

Mein Reich, Mein Fuhrer:

Here we will be discussing balance issues, design, gameplay etc etc for the project I am working on dys_dogma. I have a solid plan of bringing you, the dystopia public, a brand new map that will hopefully push the boundaries of how we play Dystopia today into a much more team and tactic oriented game, and making one of the most hardcore maps dystopia has seen! First and foremost, this is designed for clanners first, and pubbers second. The main reason for this being that clanners have most likely been around the longest and most definatly have the greatest understanding of the game and all of the weapons, and that I would very much like to try and get DGL another map.

But more importantly, this map is trying to up the skill level and teamwork required, rather than Dystopia's current idea of teamwork being camp behind doors, which is being achieved by the level design and the necessity to co-operate in the map and that getting half way through an objective and dying is not a loss, but a reward by granting you new things on your next wave.

Interested in Testing?:

Well, if you are interested in testing, or you're interested in getting your clan testing the map, if you see me around, drop me a message, and I will certainly consider (people with negative IQ need not apply!). I am keeping the testing in a very controlled manner, and I will only be accepting people who will give me good feedback. You will not be playing a perfect map, in fact you will be playing a map far from perfect. You will be finding bugs in the I/O system, bugs in the design, bugs in the brushes, textures, bugs that break gameplay and so forth, and you will be writing it all down here. Consider this my personal logbook for discussing the map and telling me about bugs and things.

I have spent a lot of time making this map work, with some very complicated I/O systems, something in the region of 18 months on and off, so, let's kick ass and chew bubblegum.

Early Alpha Shots of first Spawn

[Madmansk]

consider me interested

[KindredPhantom]

You may want to remove any drive-able brutes as they aren't supported in 1.3.

[Smaug]

They aren't drivable.

[Smaug]

Putkonen: but yeah, probably only thing to say about the map is that at the 2nd object the stairs just simply block all moving with spam, and the alternative "hole" route can be spammed out of the game too. so the alternative route should be made so that it cant be exploited that way, it should be "safe" until you're actually at the fighting zone.
Esmawgh: ok
Esmawgh: so that room
Putkonen: though, its just my opinion
Esmawgh: you hid in it once
Putkonen: yeah
Putkonen: you remember that
Esmawgh: yes
Putkonen: I just had to wait with katana, though I missed my second swing.
Putkonen: so imagine that thing if I was there with gl and tac
Putkonen: and just waiting you're close enough in the vents
Esmawgh: ok
Esmawgh: how do you think I can stop you from jumping up there again?
Putkonen: well, capturing the obj basically.
Putkonen: sealing the spawn room just delays the reformation of defence.
Esmawgh: which is fine, I like that defenders become attackers
Putkonen: yep, It just felt too easy to get the def up again.
Esmawgh: ok
Putkonen: It could be the 2 jip thing
Putkonen: that just eats up the manpower of enemy team
Esmawgh: true
Esmawgh: which is why I've been putting the checkpoints in
Esmawgh: so that they can both jump out and defend, on a succesful defend they can both jump back in
Putkonen: though, I didnt deck that thing, so, is it done like all in 1 session or you can continue from where you left off?
Esmawgh: you hit a checkpoint
Esmawgh: and you effectively continue where you left off
Putkonen: hmh
Putkonen: both decks have to be in?
Esmawgh: 1 decker helps turn the doors
Putkonen: but its still possible to do it alone?
Esmawgh: impossible
Esmawgh: and no, that's not changing
Putkonen: oh okay.
Putkonen: I dont really know about the "doors" thing
Putkonen: so
Putkonen: but thought it could refer to something like in steps of: 1. first checkpoint reached, other deck can turn 2nd door open and repeat.
Putkonen: so it could be done alone if you deck in and deck out repeatively
Esmawgh: nah, you need to get through 2 or 3 rooms then you hit a checkpoint
Esmawgh: I'm trying to promote teamwork
Esmawgh: that is one of the biggest aims of the map
Putkonen: mm.
Putkonen: 1 request; add a flickering red light to some dark unnecessary room please, i just love red flickering lights
Putkonen: : )
Esmawgh: lol
Esmawgh: ok ;|)
Putkonen: thanks, youre the best.
Esmawgh:
Putkonen: but yeah, the second objective is hell of a hard one.
Esmawgh: yes
Esmawgh: well, we're testing it so I can balance it, right?
Esmawgh: that's the whole point of this
Putkonen: yeah i know.
Esmawgh: I just get so annoyed when people make such a huge point of it
Esmawgh: it's why we're here, so I can get this balanced
Esmawgh: not some <3 saying "Well, this is BLATANTLY unbalanced"
Esmawgh: and it's like
Esmawgh: just fuck off
Putkonen: I think it could be possible to do the obj if you get 2 decks in and get 1 lr hero and some random guy to defend chokepoints with gl.
Putkonen: It just needs hell of a timing to get it working
Putkonen: the objective is just so goddamn complicated even when its so straight to do.
Putkonen: 1. get trough 1st floor. survive the gl spam on stairs
Putkonen: 2. get trough the 2nd floor of gl spam and spawn coming right into the same room you're pushing trough.
Putkonen: 4
Putkonen: 3. If youre still alive, you have to get trough 2 chokepoints fast enough to seal the lower spawn room so defenders cant just simply run in and backup.
Esmawgh: yes, I'm gonna make that stairs accessible all the way down
Putkonen: well thats interesting
Esmawgh: so you can miss 2nd floor with good deckers
Esmawgh: I'm just not gonna give the atking team the obj for nothing, you know? They have to be superior in an area to be rewarded
Putkonen: but yeah; 4. if possible, you can get reinforcements trough the "hole" and start spamming the stairway to the lowest area with 3 men when 2 are decking. thats probably the easiest part.
Putkonen: but yeah, I like the idea how you really have to push everything to its limits and if you actually can pull it off, it feels like a fucking victory.

Putkonen: I saddened when the officer told me to do my fucking job ;_;

[Savior]

I am writing here because you told me to, Smaug.

• Ammo Crate for 2nd objective, i would recommend somewhere closer to the attacking team, its better for the gls to have to come out of position and be able to get caught off guard.
• Make the other staircase on 2nd unlockable?
• Add arrows on top of cyber "teacups" on 2nd objective, pointing the direction they are open
• Devise some method of making it easier to understand 1st objective lines. Its probably silly, but maybe an active map in the punks spawn that shows the connections just like the halls?

This is all I can think of for now.

If you use 50% or more of these, I will come to your house and murder you. I'm serious this time.

[metzgrr!]

Heres my thoughts and feedback. I dont want to write anything about obj 3 and 4 yet because I feel like I havent played them enough yet, I will edit them in later.



Objective 1

I have never seen or played any objective like this in Dystopia. By that I mean the mechanics of it. I like it, because a new mechanic gives room for exploration. Im still a little bit confused how it all works, but If I cant tell where the enemy team is, I just fall back to either the button or the first node, I never felt lost in that way.

Possibly the only "major" change I would want you to think about would be how the objective would play if more people at the same node meant faster capture rate. Maybe this would encourage attackers to progress as a group, while the defenders have to predict the attackers next move.

Ive mentioned this before, but I believe Dystopia works best in arena-like environments. All of the physical nodes are at the moment cylindrical shaped. I believe they need variation. Some could be remade into labs, storage areas, etc, and have an "arena" touch to them. Even the corridors connecting the physical nodes could be rooms with various height differences and mechanics.

The lazers are fun. I like how they are not hard to dodge, which makes me feel like an badass when I do it. The gas on the other hand is kind off annoying, it could be because it looks rather harmless, if it looked/sounded more dangerous I wouldn't feel so bad about loosing so much hp after walking into it.

Overall the objective is fun. At the end of the day its all that matters. I believe most who plays this objective, and accept that its different from standard Dystopia objectives will think its fun too.



Objective 2

This is a though one. I think some big redesigns should be done. What if there was no exist at bottom floor for defenders? And if attackers could bypass 2nd floor without passing trough it? I think that could make most of the struggle take place on bottom floor, instead of top and middle.

Many checkpoints are needed for the objective I think. Theres no way attackers will be able to defend against a full armored team while them self possibly have non and may even be on low health. I think you need to make it so that each passing second the attacking team manages to stay in objective jips, is a success.

The bottom floor of this objective could possibly be opened up a little bit I think. By that I dont mean longer max distance, but rather wider space to more around in.

[{McMuffin}]

i can test

[YoRu]

3:49 PM - YoRu: also, maybe move the button to change where the defense can leave the spawn
3:49 PM - YoRu: right now the button is too easy to defend
3:50 PM - YoRu: i'd put ammo in tht room maybe
3:50 PM - Esmawgh: WHY AREN'T YOU WRITING THIS IN THE THREAD
3:50 PM - YoRu: cause im writing it to u
3:50 PM - Esmawgh: I won't remember
3:50 PM - Esmawgh: my thread is a notepad
3:50 PM - Esmawgh: why don't people listen to me
3:50 PM - YoRu: fiiine
3:50 PM - YoRu: i'll copy pasta in a bit
3:51 PM - YoRu: maybe add a room on the 2nd floor of offices where tht button is
3:52 PM - YoRu: the same lvl tht the punks have to leave spawn when the corps press it
3:52 PM - YoRu: so they have to go 2 tht lvl to make it so they can directly access the lower lvl
3:53 PM - YoRu: since they still spawn in an excellent spot up top. if they kill the corps in the bottom lvl and have to then run up again to press the button, it'd b harder to set up a defence

[Smaug]

I wanna make the obj1 nodes different, rather than round rooms. I am currently debating whether to try the idea that Metz suggests in regards to more people = faster cap. My heart says yes, because this map is all about rewarding teamwork, but my mind says no in that it should always be a relatively fast cap because obj1 is difficult as is. Any thoughts on HOW I would do the I/O system for faster capping? I'm probably gonna have to figure it out by playing around with it.

Any suggestions on how to make the rooms look different btw?

Obj2 isn't gonna get a large overhaul insofar as removing/moving rooms around goes, until all the minor balance tweaks everyone's suggested has been done.

Yoru, I like having the button where it is, the idea is that it might force corps to spread themselves out a bit rather than focussing on one chokepoint, which is something I want to try and avoid, but I will try moving it in the near future just to see what it's like, same with the suggestion of removing the downstairs exit altogether - I'm just a bit worried about spawncamping - that said, it's a long traveling distance, maybe I should offer a 100% spawncamp chance, rather than having to hit the button downstairs and get back upstairs.

Maybe I should consider removing the glass section in the bottom floor?

Discuss, tester minions.

[lamer]

As a replacement/idea for that mysterious empty room located between the .2nd objective defeneders' upper spawn door. and the stairs. The room you made smaller in a3.

http://www.bilderhosting.info/out.php/i825_Elevator.jpg
Screenshot taken from Half-Life 1 Singleplayer

Consider this an impression.


####Edit###############################

With all those stairs around objective two, you may think about this image for a second. It's quite self-explanatory. (Except for the word "endges")

http://www.bilderhosting.info/out.php/i ... sedges.jpg

If grenades slip off that invisible "ramp", don't use it :P But you should give it a try!


####Edit2##############################

Think of the area in front of objective 3 and add this impression to the image in your head.

[D.ee]

I think in the second objective, you should add a second doorway in the glass walls because spam is huge in there. The other floors don't really need much change (maybe a few tweaks here and there) because in a way or another teams do get to the last floor, but they get stuck there due to spam in my opinion.

By the way, in the first spawn for corps, right below the estus poster spawn, corp heavies cannot move unless they crouch.

EDIT: 2nd Obj Icewalls programs are upside-down.

Thats all I can think of now.

[YoRu]

the spawn door button broke after being pushed a couple times

no clue how many

[Smaug]

Fixed it.

Next testing on thursday - if there are any bugs you are aware of, plz write them here, I think I fixed everything that was mentioned in the last test.

[Smaug]

Will be making the cyber teacups lock in before making it a 1-deck-only objective.

Sparky20k: no 3, I can't read my own writing
Señor Whiskers: lol
Sparky20k: Copr spawn 2nd obj, forcefield toor is too small
Sparky20k: I always hit the sides when trying to bhop through
Señor Whiskers: ok
Sparky20k: Door lock thing I told you about
Sparky20k: Punk 2nd spawn
Sparky20k: the upper part needs a turret at the back
Sparky20k: corps can come in and cause havoc
Sparky20k: put it over the stairwell is probs the best idea, that way it shouldnt attack anybody outside
Señor Whiskers: ok!
Señor Whiskers: thanks, I'll make those changes
Sparky20k: coolio
Sparky20k: oh yeah
Sparky20k: ammo in corp 2nd obj
Sparky20k: pleeease?

[Smaug]

Kaz: some tought, the area of the first obj i way to big, and turns it in 1v1s, wich imo is bad in a team game, and once you've come thourg it all(maybe even witout meating anyone it's a bit easy to cap it(maybe make the button harder to come to or place a timer on it so the defernders canreverse it), second was pretty nice, with the exception of the impossible decking stuff for the obj, maybe make it easier somehow, and the rest "felt" fine, even if the cyber room for last looked a bit wierd

Lox and Bagels: so: things to change
Lox and Bagels: make glass bigger in 3rd obj jip
Lox and Bagels: without the divider

[YoRu]

Lox and Bagels: so: things to change
Lox and Bagels: make glass bigger in 3rd obj jip
Lox and Bagels: without the divider

she means 2nd obj

[Smaug]

To celebrate 1 month of testing, aside from the alcohol and the FUCKING COCAINE, and to ensure you keen bitches that the map is still continuing, here's a picture or 2.




(Right click, view image) These aren't final, by a longshot, just some early designs. Original textures by Dee, concept designs by Lars, they are the sexiest people on the planet right now.

Incase anybody else is interested, I will be bringing in new people soon, let me know if you'd like to be brought into The Fold, here or if you see me around, read original post for details.

[Velijah]

Incase anybody else is interested, I will be bringing in new people soon, let me know if you'd like to be brought into The Fold, here or if you see me around, read original post for details.

Im interested in playtesting the map.

[Neon Girl]

Me too.

[Xaxu]

I, too, am interested in seeing how far this map has come. If not playtesting, at least some more images, please.

[YoRu]

quiet peasants, smaug's map will be ready for u when its rdy

[Neon Girl]

Care to have it up for an MFP?
Related: 1.3 MFP thread

[Smaug]

Now that I have the internet back, here you go, puny humans:

[Neon Girl]

Got updates?